I have a new enemy

topic posted Tue, April 7, 2009 - 7:20 AM by  offline~Ms. Purity~
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And I don't know what it is! Well, it's a plant of some sort. Appears to be a vine. My old enemy was bermuda grass. I finally got a handle on that at our old property - where it was EVERYWHERE and learned the best ways to eradicate it. Our new property has a small bit of bermuda grass, which is totally manageable. This new weed is MUCH worse and everywhere, including our garden beds. It's a very tender, lush vine with simple smooth leaves that are about 3/4" wide and 1" long. They are bright green. I'll see if I can take a picture when I get home tonight. It hasn't started blooming yet and it dies back in the winter.

When you try to pull it, the stem snaps off very easily. If you leave any little bit it will grow from that and it appears to be a lot more aggressive than the bermuda grass. I've tried digging it up and most of it is really deep, up to a foot down and it's usually just a small piece of it that it's sprouting from. Now here's the kicker. I try to be as organic as possible, but this vine is making me nuts. I tried heavy mulching, which only slowed it down for about a week. I've tried digging it up, but it's just too prolific. Seriously, you remove one and two more pop up. I tried vinegar - nothing. I even resorted to trying a non-organic weed killer. Guess what? It didn't kill it! The leaves got a few small brown spots on them, but 2 weeks later and it's still growing out of control.

The strange thing is that my neighbors don't have it so I wonder if the previous owners brought it in. I'm in the SF Bay Area. I'd like to find an organic method of getting rid of it.
posted by:
~Ms. Purity~
North Bay
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  • Re: I have a new enemy

    Tue, April 7, 2009 - 10:54 PM
    do you have an "extension center" near you? can you send a sample to a college that teaches agriculture? is it edible? I am the only person in my neighborhood with dandelions. I eat the new leaves as salad and make wine from the crushed plants. roasted roots as a beverage. My neighbors hate me but I am consuming a lot of free vitamin C and A and they aren't.
    • Re: I have a new enemy

      Tue, April 7, 2009 - 10:59 PM
      sounds like bindweed which I detest with every fiber of my being...horticultural vinegar will kill it, but you must use it VERY sparingly...
      • Re: I have a new enemy

        Wed, April 8, 2009 - 2:25 AM
        I thought bindweed first too. Seems like that would be described as having heart shaped leaves. It is essentially morning glory. I understand there are a lot of variations on the theme though, and perhaps some of them have leaves that aren't heart shaped. It is a tough customer alright. We have it bad here too. When i had land with a lot of it, i would put down a big black plastic tarp over the whole area and grow peppers, squash, and tomatoes in that garden for a year. Next year perennials are controllable and i would move the tarp to another part of the garden.

        Never tried horticultural vinegar. Does it kill the root?
      • Re: I have a new enemy

        Wed, April 8, 2009 - 7:40 AM
        Yeah, I already tried saturating it with vinegar with absolutely zero luck. Where can I find concentrated vinegar?

        It doesn't look like bindweed - the leaves are not heart shaped. I wasn't able to get out and take a picture yesterday, but I'll try today.
        • Re: I have a new enemy

          Wed, April 8, 2009 - 8:10 AM
          For a better description, the leaves look a lot like Vinca minor and at first that's what I thought it was (and it might still be) because one side of our yard - in the shady area - was covered in it. But it generally doesn't die back every year which makes me think it's something else. Though it could be dying back in the problem area because it's in full sun with no supplemental water.
          • Re: I have a new enemy

            Fri, April 10, 2009 - 10:19 PM

            I don't really think of Vinca as a vine because it tends to run along the ground rather than climbing. Vinca major is the problem species that has become naturalized here in California and has become a problem as an invasive non-native exotic. I do have expertise in plant taxonomy and could likely identify the plant from a photo if you post one.
  • Re: I have a new enemy

    Wed, April 8, 2009 - 5:39 AM
    I also would like to know more about your experience with Horticultural vinegar. I have a major bindweed problem, and though I black plastic-ed my garden last year, I think it's already beginning to creep back in at the edges. I would love to figure out how to eradicate the stuff totally.
    • Re: I have a new enemy

      Wed, April 8, 2009 - 6:51 AM
      Vinegar is part of every household's kitchen but did you know that this sour-tasting liquid is an effective herbicide for organic farming? This is the major finding of a study conducted by Jay Radhakrishnan, John Teasdale and Ben Coffman, researchers from the Agricultural Research Service (ARS), the principal scientific research agency of the US Department of Agriculture (USDA). Although, a few farmers have already been using natural agents like baking soda, garlic and vinegar as herbicide, there were really no scientific studies to back-up that these agents are effective. Thus, scientists from ARS conducted greenhouse and field researches to determine the effectiveness of vinegar as herbicide.

      To conform to organic farming standards, the scientists used vinegar derived from fruits (grapes and apples) or grains (malt). Naturally processed vinegar is produced by rotting the fruits or the grains under an anaerobic or "no-oxygen condition". Through fermentation, the sugars from these plant sources are converted to alcohol and carbon dioxide. Through oxidation, the alcohol reacts with air to form vinegar.

      Vinegar that is prepared from plant sources contains 5% acetic acid, a pungent, colorless acid, which is basically the main component of vinegar. Acetic acid is commonly known as ethanoic acid.

      The potency of this vinegar was tested on five major weeds, namely: common lamb's quarters, giant foxtail, velvet leaf, smooth pigweed and Canada thistle. Using the spot spraying method, the scientists hand-sprayed and uniformly coated the leaves of the weeds with different solutions of vinegar.

      According to Dr. Jaay Radhakrishnan, lead researcher of this study, the vinegar was able to "kill several important weed species at several growth stages." He added that, vinegar with 10-20% acetic acid concentration killed 80-100% of selected annual weeds particularly, the 3-inch giant foxtail, 5-inch common lamb's quarters, 6-inch smooth pigweed, and 9-inch velvetleaf.

      Results further showed that the 5% acetic acid concentration had different effects on the weeds. However, the Canada thistle, one of the most stubborn weeds in the world, was found to be the most receptive with 100% kill by 5% solution.

      These weeds grow along with crops so it is important that the scientists also determine the effects of spraying vinegar to these major crops. The scientists spot sprayed the base of the corn rows and found that the vinegar was able to control 90-100% of the weeds while the corn plants remained unaffected. The scientists informed the farmers that they could also use the broadcast application (applying by scattering) of vinegar to their crops but the process is more expensive compared to band application (applying to a certain portion only).

      Aside from being economical, using vinegar as herbicide is also environmentally safe. Farmers can now do away with synthetically processed herbicide that could affect their health.

      Source: Press release at ARS News and Information, "Spray Weeds With Vinegar?" by Don Comis of the Agricultural Research Service, USDA, Beltsville, MD. For more information you may contact the lead researcher of this study through his e-mail, radhakrj@ba.ars.usda.gov.

      Unfortunately vinegar is not a selective herbicide and can damage any plant contacted by the solution. So researchers recommend trying vinegar as a weed killer for special situations such as spot treatment of weed patches between rows of plastic mulch or other areas where contact with crop plants can be avoided.

      They also recommend using vinegar for killing weeds along roadsides and range lands and for homeowners to control weeds around brick walls, sidewalk and driveway cracks.

      Vinegar can be applied to plants in two ways:

      It can be sprayed directly on the plant (used as a contact herbicide) or it can be applied to the soil. (used as a soil drench)

      Spraying vinegar directly on a plant dissolves off the waxy protective coating on the foliage, making the plant vulnerable to desiccation. The plant will then dry out all the way to the root.

      Pouring vinegar on the soil lowers the soil pH to a point where the plants cant survive.

      In Sweden, vinegar has been registered as a herbicide for weed control in concrete pavements.

      So if you want to eliminate those pesky dandelions from your lawn without resorting to chemical pesticides, hand digging to remove the tuberous root is still the best natural method.
      • Re: I have a new enemy

        Wed, April 8, 2009 - 7:19 AM
        Neat! Thanks Lisa, this is very cool to know. I wonder how it would effect the soil over time... Do you know? Have you used this method yourself over a period of time?
        • Re: I have a new enemy

          Wed, April 8, 2009 - 11:54 AM

          Looks like some Asian markets may have the concentrated vinegar

          www.koamart.com/shop/34-13..._16_9oz.asp

          Description: Concentrated Fermented Vinegar

          NET WT.: 16.9 oz / SERVINGS ABOUT 100 Single Bottle: $2.69

          INGREDIENTS: water, spirits, malt extract, dextrose, isomalto oligosaccharide, citric acid

          By definition vinegar is a sour liquid consisting mainly of acetic acid and water that is produced by the action of bacteria on dilute solutions of ethanol, and derived from previous yeast fermentation. The alcoholic liquor used determines the characteristic color and flavor. Vinegar is used as a salad dressing, as a preservative, as a mild disinfectant, and, in cooking, as a fiber softener.
          • Re: I have a new enemy

            Wed, April 8, 2009 - 12:28 PM
            A local supplier here has an interesting selection of natural herbicides. They do orders online, but most of these are only available on large scale. We have a lot of organic growers in the county i'm in . I would think the same products will shortly be available in smaller quantities. I suppose it would be practical for several smaller growers to go in together. These new to me, but must be popular with local growers or would not be there

            Burnout ll Concentrate - an all natural grass and weed killer, is made from vinegar (acetic acid), clove oil, lemon, and other natural plant oils. This proven combination of ingredients makes for one of the best lawn weed killers available. Burnout has more killing power than plain vinegar weed killers. Burnout is a non-toxic and pet safe weed killer. It is a biodegradable product and does not bioaccumulate. Vinegar readily degrades in water. Burnout doesn't affect soil health, within 48 hours the pH of the soil will return to its original level. If you are using Burnout on young, small weeds (3-5 leaf) we recommend mixing 3:1 with water. So in this case 1 gallon of Burnout concentrate will make 4 gallons of ready to use spray. If you're weeds are older and more entrenched, mix 2:1 with water, so 2.5 gallons of Burnout concentrate will make 7.5 gallons of ready to use weed killer. 1 gal. of ready to use spray will cover approx 600 sq. ft. 1 gallon and 2.5 gallon size is Concentrate.
            1 gallon
            2.5 gallon
            $ 42.00
            87.00
            Matratec Ag Concentrate - A non-selective, post emergence herbicide made from clove oil, wintergreen oil, butyl lactate and lecithin. Rate: at a 5% dilution rate, one gallon of Matratec Ag will make about 20 gallons of spray. It is recommended to mix this product with the Organic BioLink Buffer & Penetrant product. The BioLink Buffer / Penetrant will help the product be absorbed into the foliage faster which will help burn it out fast. OMRI Listed
            1 gallon
            2.5 gallon
            $ 101.00
            230.00

            Organic Bio Link Buffer & Penetrant - A Liquid garlic based pH buffer, acidifying agent and penetrant that is designed to lower the pH of spray solutions and increase penetration of fertilizers, pesticides or repellent materials. Use with Matratec Ag to make it more effective. OMRI Listed
            1 gallon
            24.00
            Poison Ivy Defoliant RTU- Made from natural plant oils including a high concentration of clove oil and vinegar. Works on poison ivy, oak and sumac. Fast acting. May require several applications. Best to apply when the sun is shinning. Treats 600 sq. ft.
            1 gal.
            $ 39.75

            www.7springsfarm.com/catalog...BICIIDES
            • Re: I have a new enemy

              Wed, April 8, 2009 - 1:08 PM
              Ms Purity I might have the same weed, as per your description....I image goggled bindweed and what I have is NOT bindweed either. A picture would help, mine needs water to grow and it took over around some of the soaker hose sections that were in between beds. It is subdued now, but that is after I tilled the whole area, weeded it, turned the soil over to add compost, made wood chip paths.... Now there is a lot of other stuff planted where it used to be, and so far so good.... It is a bit invasive and i need to keep on it to weed it but it does not sound as serious as what you describe. Perhaps because I live in a dryer climate? If I find some this weekend I will try to take a picture too.
          • Re: I have a new enemy

            Wed, April 8, 2009 - 1:06 PM
            That asian stuff says it's twice as acidic as regular vinegar. That's significant and the price sure looks right. I've been googling around for homemade organic herbicides, and this is what i've found :


            Vinegar, garlic and other oils have long been a weed control method. What they do is burn the leaves, quickly browning them. However, unless the weed is very young, it does not kill the roots. That means that in a week or two, the weed will say “Hello, I’m baaaack!”, taunting you once again. Hand weeding is easier.

            That being said, stronger (11% acetic acid or higher) vinegar is much more powerful against weeds, including the roots. Regular commercial vinegar is around 5%, so this will only burn the leaves of the weeds. Stronger vinegar solutions will be sold as a herbicide, and may be found at some gardening centers and online, such as Amazon.com. Be aware that strong vinegar is dangerous, so handle with care and definitely do not get any in your eyes!

            goorganicgardening.com/garden...bicides

            Then i found this:

            Vinegar

            Acetic acid is the active ingredient in vinegar that kills weeds, similar to essential oils. However, this is not your household vinegar. Tests indicate weed control is effective only when concentrations of acetic acid are boosted above 20 percent. Household vinegar contains 5 percent acetic acid.

            Some vinegar products containing concentrations greater than 20 percent acetic acid do not list "herbicide" among their uses, even though they can be used as such. Acetic acid does have other uses, such as a cleaning agent and lowering water pH. Products that don't list it as an herbicide are able to avoid the costly process of Environmental Protection Agency registration. Be aware that products with concentrations over 11 percent can burn your skin and severely injure the eyes. Labels on products that are not listed as an herbicide will not be required to tell you that.

            Products such as AllDown and Burnout II contain vinegar concentrate in addition to other essential oils. Bradfords produces a 20 percent acetic acid product. AllDown boasts organic certification from other agents but not by the Organic Materials Review Institute. The others did not appear on the institute database.

            www.charleston.net/news/200...ons48035/
        • Re: I have a new enemy

          Wed, April 8, 2009 - 2:25 PM
          I use it between my flagstones, where I don't want anything to grow, but stuff does eventually come back...and I get mine at the Nursery...you could get it from High Country gardens I think...it's quite expensive but a little goes a very long way and it keeps forever...
  • Paradigm shift

    Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:17 AM
    -often easier said than done, but some say plants show up when needed.
    after u ID the plant, might want to look up traditional/ medicinal properties.
    i got my degree in Ornamental Horticulture, then worked for a nurse-herbalist. it was really exciting to discover all those "weeds" were actually invaluable. that being said, if you're not wanting it, i'd try a combo of thorough weeding, followed by thick newspaper or plastic covered by a couple inches of mulch. might take a while...

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