Hydroponics

topic posted Thu, November 1, 2007 - 5:05 AM by  David
I was told the other day that my attempts at an organic garden are in vain due to the soil history (which is not necessarily negative, just unknown). They suggested hydroponics as a viable alternative.

I plan to continue with my organic garden, but was wondering if anyone here has experience with hydroponics. We're doing some basement growing during the winter and thought we might also try some hydro.
posted by:
David
Kentucky
  • Re: Hydroponics

    Fri, November 2, 2007 - 11:24 AM
    Hydroponics can be very successful but it's very difficult to see how you could do it organically and cheaply. It requires a hydroponics rig which could be built pretty cheaply using piping and an outdoor pump. the tricky part would be the nutrient bath. Virtually all commercially available nutrient solutions are most assuredly not organic. You'd almost certainly have to make your own using very well processed compost and various organic products like blood meal and such.

    You could definitely do it but it wouldn't be easy and it would definitely be time consuming.

    Does anyone have any alternate experience?

    I would also make the argument that the basic statement is complete crap. Every plot of soil on this planet is capable of support life if all of the artificial crap is removed so why would organic gardening be in vain? It might take a lot of compost and other amenities and take years to establish but there's absolutely no fundamental reason that it wouldn't eventually succeed assuming it's not a) a former industrial waste dump or b) a nuclear site.. in either of those cases I'd be more worried for other reasons.
    • Re: Hydroponics

      Fri, November 2, 2007 - 11:40 AM
      I'm curious as to who told you, and why, organic is not a viable option jsut because there is an unknown soil history. That just doesn't make any sense. Were they trying to sell you hydroponics? An organic hydroponics system is problematic and requires tons of attention to maintain (not to mention to set up). I'd say it'd be easier to rip out quetionable soil and replace it than to go to hydropnics. But that brings us back to why is this soil not sutable for growing organicaly.
      • Re: Hydroponics

        Fri, November 2, 2007 - 12:39 PM
        Long story, but they ("they" being 2 different people, neither of whom is selling anything) were essentially saying that I should get my soil tested because it could have all manner of industrial pollutants (for example) due to...well, here is a clip from one of the communiques:

        "...my organic gardening days brought me into contact with high levels of lead, carcinogenic chemicals and radioactivity. And the garden I was growing was on a former hunting estate...(that) had been farm or forest all of it's days (and still is farm and forest). Heavy metals don't go away...they linger. Heavy metals, chemicals and radioactivity can travel in groundwater supplies. Other things we found were benzene and dioxin....The lead came from left over industrial waste (invisible of course) brought to the land via stream flooding over the years...radioactivity, benzene and dioxin were (from) quite a few miles away, which shares a ground water supply with that area...."

        The other person added "...There's also that chemical rain you get from the smelters & other Industrial Polluters in Ohio. This has been falling for decades onto your soil, washed deeper by the rain." He mentioned Ohio because I'm in Kentucky. He grows hyrdoponic, but isn; selling anything (in fact, he was giving tips on how to do it more affordably). The other person doesn;t do organic anymore - I guess crossing your fingers with conventional is better (hahaha!)?

        Anyway, I'll still be doing my organic garden regardless. Just wanted to get some input on hydro.

        Thanx!
        • Re: Hydroponics

          Wed, November 7, 2007 - 12:17 PM
          I'd be more worried about the vinyl chloride from all the plastics used to make up most hydroponics systems than your land happens to be heavily polluted. Is there any reason to beleive that your plot has been polluted in this nature? Seems like these quotes were from some rather alarmist type people. If you are that worried about pollutants there are simple and fairly inexpensive tests to see what pollutants you may be facing in your soil and water. They claim that they wer exposed to a laundry list of pollutants but seem to skip right over how they KNOW this.


          FWIW, I specialize in cleaning heavy metals and hydrocarbons (benzene and MTBE in particular) from soil and ground water.
    • Re: Hydroponics

      Tue, November 13, 2007 - 4:08 PM
      I've often pondered if one could succeed in flushing hydroponic setups with compost teas and/or other organic fertilizers but really I think that because it is organic material it will bring on unwanted fungi and bacteria. From what I have been taught about hydroponics is that the aim is for a sterile growth environment (hence the lack of soil) to reduce disease, so straight chemical nutrients are flushed through the cycling water. Other than salt buildup, which is washed away this gives the plant what the soil is supposed to (only in excessive amounts and in a form more like a drug rather than a food), as i'm sure everybody here knows. I think the hydroponic system would get plugged up, stinky, and maybe even get anaerobic if organic nutrients were used. Now of course I could be wrong but I've never seen nor heard of any organic hydroponic farm. If anybody knows of any let me know, because i'd love to learn more about it.
      -Jen
      • Hydrophobics

        Tue, December 11, 2007 - 10:40 AM
        hydroponics need not be sterile, in fact it is desirable to innoculate the medium with some beneficial types of microbes, such as a simple addition of 5-10% worm castings

        I am a huge fan of using EM (essential microorganisms eminfo.info ) in hydropronic culture

        chemical salt based nutrients are NOT required to grow hydroponically, the source of food can be organic certified or what have you

        hydroponics in latin = working water
        • Re: Hydrophobics

          Tue, December 11, 2007 - 3:06 PM
          Interesting thoughts. Are there any hydroponics operations along these lines which have actually been certified as organic?

          Even with all the infusion of outside organics as you mention, what do you do about trace elements and non water soluble chemicals?

          I'd like to see a real side by side in depth analysis of the nutrient content between this method and good organic produce.
          • Re: Hydrophobics

            Wed, December 12, 2007 - 2:59 PM
            sure, certified organic hot house tomatoes, peppers and cukes = hydroponics

            for trace elements I use sea crop ( sea-crop.com )

            not sure what you mean by non water soluble chemicals

            the tomatoes I grow hydroponically (organically) are much tastier than what I can buy so-called certified organics in the supermarket so I am satisfied, maybe there are tests out there who knows, I know they grow wheatgrass hydroponically for instance www.ocean-grown.com/research.html so it can't be all that bad

            for people who don't have access to soil or don't have time to rejuvenate and build soil then hydroponics is a good solution (pun intended)

            I can put a few hydro pots on the edge of my driveway where it gets lots of heat and sun to make use of space that otherwise wouldn't get used, the yield is a few hundred lbs of peppers and tomatoes so I am happy
            • Re: Hydrophobics

              Fri, December 14, 2007 - 8:52 PM
              Well, I suppose it is an option, but it's still going to be energy intensive.

              Refining and transporting all the materials for it is much more energy expensive than natural gardening.

              Then there is the problem of chemicals leaching out of your equipment. Which is why you should avoid PVC, and basically any plastic labeled type 3,6, or 7.
              • Re: Hydrophobics

                Mon, December 17, 2007 - 9:04 AM
                maybe
                but if I had to choose between buying transported food and growing my own then I would probably choose the latter
                it can be done with found materials and safe materials and a little creative thought
                but I digress
                I do agree with you that natural farming is the way to go ultimately and ideally, but in some circumstances such as rooftop gardens etc hydroponics will do the trick
                • Growing options.

                  Tue, December 18, 2007 - 1:03 PM
                  Absolutely, growing your own and buying as locally as you can is the way to go, with some non-seasonal stuff from greenhouses or imports being necessary.

                  I also agree that anything we can do to turn rooftops and other surfaces into green space is beneficial to us all, not just for food but for air quality as well.

                  I'm working on preparations to build an earth bermed eco home where the roof will be covered in plants. No painting, no siding, just occasional clipping to keep larger plants out. (because their roots can dig in and cause leakage problems)

                  Passive solar heating, and rainwater redirection to a garden pond that acts as the irrigation reservoir for the garden and landscaping.

                  Sewage treatment is done by methane digestion feeding into a system of bioremedial methods such as aquaculture ponds and wetlands.

                  I'd love to see a hydroponic system that can run using manure liquids without too much trouble, for those applications where it is the best solution.
  • Re: Hydroponics

    Wed, November 7, 2007 - 2:43 PM
    Hydroponics are not organic. Period. By definition. Even if you grow plants part of the year that way, those plants can never be considered organic.

    Unless a test shows there are contaminants in your soil then you should not be worried, the other people are just pushing their pet agenda and line of BS.
    • Re: Hydroponics

      Wed, November 14, 2007 - 5:34 AM
      Thanx for all the great replies, folks!

      I guess that seals it - I'm scrapping the hydro idea!
      • Re: Hydroponics

        Sun, November 18, 2007 - 6:00 PM
        If your soil is contaminated, you couldn't grow an edible garden period organic or not. If there's a reason to suspect contamination, yes, you should get your soil tested. If it does turn out to be bad you can do an incredible amount of soil remediation using mushrooms. I don't have any sites off-hand, but an internet search will bring you tons of info.

        If you want to get started right away, you can simply build raised beds. There's no reason to have a hyrdroponic system unless you really wanted to go that route.
        • Re: Hydroponics

          Mon, November 19, 2007 - 6:51 AM
          Oh, yeah - we already started. In fact, I'll be spending the next few days turning it over. We had a FABULOUS garden this year!

          I might get the soil tested, but I'm just really not that concerned with it right now. Yeah, I should be, but.....

          What I wil do, though, is check out the mushroom idea. THANX!!!
          • Re: Hydroponics

            Mon, November 19, 2007 - 10:50 PM
            You can't go wrong with having the right mycelium strains in your soil even if you don't have a problem that needs remediation.

            It will be there when you need it and serve useful balancing functions in the meanwhile.

            By the way, the best site to go to is the one run by Paul Stamets. Just look for Fungi Perfecti in a google search.
    • hydroponics is not evil/don't fear hydroponics

      Tue, December 11, 2007 - 10:31 AM
      hydroponics = water culture = growing plants in an inert medium (with fertigation as the prime source of nutrient)

      yes it is possible to grow organically and hydroponically (organic = carbon); simplest way is to get some coco-coir and use some rubbermaids with holes punched in the bottom as containers, and lids underneath to collect runoff

      hydroponics generally precludes the use of ammendments in the medium, so it is a method to feed plants with the fertilizer component contained in the feed water

      an addition of 10% earthworm castings to the inert medium provides carbon (humus) and calcium plus beneficial microbes that can help break down nutrients for the plant roots

      most garden type plants can be fed with a simple combination of worm box leachate and/or fish hydrosylate and liquid kelp mixed into the water that you will be feeding the plants, which should be pH balanced to around pH 6 in most cases

      passive hydroponics is the simplest method, and that is just hand watering the medium as needed (when it gets dry)

      you will get the best results growing water loving plants such as tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, salad greens, etc. which yield well for the space and energy that they require, they are also pricey in the supermarket

      with a little research and creativity it is possible to do hydroponics for little cost, for instance clean virgin douglas fir sawdust is a widely used hydroponic medium, and it is free or almost free...leachate from worm bins is a great fertilizer...5 gallon pails for pots...south facing windows = garden




  • Re: Hydroponics

    Wed, December 19, 2007 - 9:14 AM
    Hello David,
    I would not believe anyone who says you cannot grown an organic garden anywhere.
    Really, connecting with the land, anywhere you are rooted is the first step.
    There are so many techniques to build soil.
    I recommend Gaia's Garden, a book about home scale permaculture techniques.
    Hydroponically grown vegetables will not contain the life force and nutrients that vegetables grown in soil have.
    Stick close to the earth and you will be in good shape.
    Peace, Julie
    • Re: Hydroponics

      Fri, December 28, 2007 - 4:14 AM
      Ah, big problem with that Julie.

      You forget that there are places where the land is so damaged and polluted that you really cannot grow an organic garden and it will never pass any of the certification requirements.

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